4e Monster Creation: What.

Psychic Robot · Post by **Psychic Robot** » Tue Nov 04, 2008 10:27 pm

So they get +1 attack/damage per HD you advance them. The damage boost is fine. The attack boost...? Why the fuck would they higher attack bonuses than the PCs? I thought the entire goal of 4e was to make the math "work at all levels." Perhaps I'm just missing something, but doesn't this formula make the math work less? Shouldn't the PCs and monsters advance at the same rate to keep the math on the level?

zeruslord · Post by **zeruslord** » Tue Nov 04, 2008 10:37 pm

Monsters aren't supposed to be advanced more than 5 levels from base level. Also, there are other things scaling PCs' AC and attacks.

But yeah, that's dumb.

Psychic Robot · Post by **Psychic Robot** » Tue Nov 04, 2008 10:43 pm

Wait, I can't turn a horse into an epic dire horse? Lame.

zeruslord · Post by **zeruslord** » Tue Nov 04, 2008 10:51 pm

If you try to make a horse into an epic dire horse, it turns into a lame closet troll with broken math. An epic dire horse is actually an entirely different monster with completely separate base stats from a heroic regular horse. This is the way it has always been in D&D, although 4e is so tantalizingly close to killing that particular sacred cow.

RandomCasualty2 · Post by **RandomCasualty2** » Tue Nov 04, 2008 11:14 pm

Psychic Robot wrote:Why the fuck would they higher attack bonuses than the PCs? I thought the entire goal of 4e was to make the math "work at all levels." Perhaps I'm just missing something, but doesn't this formula make the math work less? Shouldn't the PCs and monsters advance at the same rate to keep the math on the level?

No, This is still old 3.5 monsters=PCs thinking.

Keep in mind that PCs get bonuses from magic gear and monsters don't. Basically the +1 per level is about what you're going to get from advancing your gear, upgrading your ability scores, and so on.

Basically PCs are expected to get a .5 bonus to AC and defenses per level from magic items, ability score increases and so on.

It doesn't work terrible, though there are a few holes in the math, but generally if you use the DMG ranges for monster stats, it works fine.

Psychic Robot · Post by **Psychic Robot** » Tue Nov 04, 2008 11:20 pm

Sigh. Wasn't 4e supposed to eliminate magic item dependency?

zeruslord · Post by **zeruslord** » Tue Nov 04, 2008 11:24 pm

It reduced the Magic Christmas Tree effect somewhat and set explicit guidelines for bonuses by level, making it easier for new players to know what they need at each level. It also flattened the need for bonus items across all classes. On the other hand, there is still a requirement for a certain level of magic in order to be a functional character. In the next edition, they will hopefully get off their asses and eliminate +x items entirely.

RandomCasualty2 · Post by **RandomCasualty2** » Tue Nov 04, 2008 11:33 pm

Psychic Robot wrote:Sigh. Wasn't 4e supposed to eliminate magic item dependency?

Well it was supposed to reduce the dependency and it did, but only slightly and you'd barely notice it. Magic items are pretty much important as ever. While you only need 3 for your RNG stuff (attack, AC and defenses). You still end up buying a ton of lesser items to boost damage.

So long as scaling bonus items exist (ie. the typical +2 sword), then there will always be a huge magic item dependency, because monsters have to factor in that you'll have such gear otherwise monsters get pushed off the RNG.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Wed Nov 05, 2008 12:57 am

It reduced the Magic Christmas Tree effect somewhat

No it did not. It just works differently now. You literally can't survive at your level without a magic weapon, a magic cloak, and some magic pants. That's one less magic item requirement for a greatswordsman (no required ring of protection), and two more required magic items for Presto the magician.

Standardizing the magic items that everyone has to have is not a reduction in magical christmas tree. Quite the opposite.

-Username17

zeruslord · Post by **zeruslord** » Wed Nov 05, 2008 1:08 am

Didn't swordsmen typically have:

a magic sword
magic armor
ring of protection
cloak of resistance
one or more extra sources of armor bonus(amulet of natural armor)
belt of ability bonuses

before adding in other items needed to be in the right place to play the game.
Mages had a shorter list, but it included the ability bonus, the cloak of resistance, and often some sort of armor bonus.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Wed Nov 05, 2008 1:17 am

zeruslord wrote:Didn't swordsmen typically have:
a magic sword
magic armor
ring of protection
cloak of resistance
one or more extra sources of armor bonus(amulet of natural armor)
belt of ability bonuses
before adding in other items needed to be in the right place to play the game.
Mages had a shorter list, but it included the ability bonus, the cloak of resistance, and often some sort of armor bonus.

What level are you talking? A 7th level character for example spent 4-8k on a single level appropriate item - and he only had 19k to spend. Affording 4 items total is actually kind of a stretch. A 4th edition character gets 4 items automagically, and an organic character gets more.

While a 3rd edition character has a longer 20th level item wishlist, that is in no small part due to the fact that 3rd edition offers more interesting item options in the DMG than 4th edition does even with the Adventurer's Footlocker.

-Username17

Psychic Robot · Post by **Psychic Robot** » Wed Nov 05, 2008 2:44 am

You mean like an instant fortress? I really like those. I think Sarumon would approve.

RandomCasualty2 · Post by **RandomCasualty2** » Wed Nov 05, 2008 5:55 am

FrankTrollman wrote: What level are you talking? A 7th level character for example spent 4-8k on a single level appropriate item - and he only had 19k to spend. Affording 4 items total is actually kind of a stretch. A 4th edition character gets 4 items automagically, and an organic character gets more.

While a 3rd edition character has a longer 20th level item wishlist, that is in no small part due to the fact that 3rd edition offers more interesting item options in the DMG than 4th edition does even with the Adventurer's Footlocker.

Well 3E had a lot more bonuses to collect.

You had three flavors of AC standard AC bonuses: enhancement, natural armor enhancement and deflection. You had one flavor of save booster (resistance), one flavor of Attack/damage boost (enhancement) and you also had bonuses to each of your ability scores (also enhancement).

Now assuming you're going to boost at least 2 ability scores, stay on the RNG for AC and saves and keep your attack up, that's 7 magic items right there. And that's before you even start to get into interesting effects.

Add in the magic item compendium where playing Pretty princess dressup is the order of the day, and you've got several pairs of boots, belts and other shit that you're going to swap around.

That's if you're a fighter.

If you're a mage, then there's much less item dependency. You need a headband of int and that's it.

4E has by no means eliminated item dependency but at the very least it has made it even. No longer are we just saying that fighters need piles and piles of items while wizards get off just on pure class abilities. It's a step in the right direction, but I just wish they'd have gotten rid of +1 swords entirely.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Wed Nov 05, 2008 8:11 am

RC wrote:Now assuming you're going to boost at least 2 ability scores, stay on the RNG for AC and saves and keep your attack up, that's 7 magic items right there. And that's before you even start to get into interesting effects.

Again, what level are we talking? Those gloves of Dexterity cost 4k for the smallest one. That's the cost of a +2 shield, so there's no way that you'd take one ahead of basic magic armor until you could afford one - and that isn't lining itself up to happen at the supposed wealth limits until things have literally already gone crazy.

It's a nineteen thousand spending spree at 7th level. After the Armor, Sword, and Cloak of Resistance +2, there's less than 3k to spend - you literally can't afford even a single ability modifier, let alone two. And this is when we're talking about a 7th level character - roughly the equivalent of a 10th level 4e character. While 3rd edition warriors are going to be expected to start branching out into secondary equipment after 7th level, I remind you that 4th edition characters start getting whole extra item slots at 11th - slots that they are expected to fill.

At the levels that people actually played the game, it is objectively not true that the 4th edition rules predict that you will be covered with less weird magical bonus items.

-Username17

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Wed Nov 05, 2008 9:31 am

Seriously though, who makes their sword +2 (from 2K to 8K, that's a 6K gap) before buying a clit ring of Str +2 first? It gives you the exact same bonus, except you can also carry more shit and half the time it's dealing an extra point of damage due to the "Strength and a half" of 2HF.

Having started many a game that begins at 10th level, I usually go for a whole bunch of +4 stat boosters (although it'd be stretching it to say they're needed. Not like they are in 4E, certainly), a +1 or +2 weapon (if a fighty type), +2 armour and... random crap. Oh, the cloak of resistance +2-3 and maybe a +1 ring of protection and/or amulet of natural armour. Maybe.

But there's plenty of money left for random crap such as potions, scrolls, a Handy Haversack, wands, feather tokens and the like.

And no, to the best of my knowledge I've never actually bought a clit ring of Strength. Usually I make do with a belt like everyone else.

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Wed Nov 05, 2008 12:16 pm

Yeah, there's nothing interesting to buy as far as magical items go.

They completely fucked the system up. They made waaaaaay too many fucking magical items dailies and didn't even have a consistent system to deal with it. So like I said earlier, 90-95% of the magical item vault gets outright ignored.

That's retarded. While 3E had a lot of treasure that didn't directly increase your power and about 20% of non-weapon/armor magic items you could get were just outright useless, at least you were excited to have bullshit like a rod of rulership and a magical goatsexing pavilion tent.

The big problem was making those things count against the items you were supposed to have. That's bad.

But 4th Edition made it worse by making most of the treasure in the book stuff you literally don't give a fuck about. If someone gave a 3rd Edition character a darkskull or a deck of illusions for FREE without it counting against their treasure total then people would still enjoy having it. But 9 times out of 10, you can get a magic item and as long as it didn't boost your core stats you would never ever give a fuck about it. What the fuck am I supposed to do with a Holy Symbol of the Raven Queen? The one I have right now is just as good.

RandomCasualty2 · Post by **RandomCasualty2** » Wed Nov 05, 2008 6:33 pm

Koumei wrote:Seriously though, who makes their sword +2 (from 2K to 8K, that's a 6K gap) before buying a clit ring of Str +2 first? It gives you the exact same bonus, except you can also carry more shit and half the time it's dealing an extra point of damage due to the "Strength and a half" of 2HF.

Yeah, 3E fully encouraged you to be a christmas tree, because buying multiple items of differing bonuses was cheaper than buying one big item.

So basically you were encouraged to buy a bunch of trivial minor magic items. Which really sucked from a storytelling point of view.

Psychic Robot · Post by **Psychic Robot** » Wed Nov 05, 2008 6:39 pm

Ironically enough, that's the case with 4e--why would you blow all your money on that +6 weapon when you could have three +5 weapons for the same price.

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Wed Nov 05, 2008 6:49 pm

Ironically enough, that's the case with 4e--why would you blow all your money on that +6 weapon when you could have three +5 weapons for the same price.

That's the thing. You would.

The vast majority of the weapons suck balls because they revolve around that idiotic daily mechanic. If you're a melee user, you want either a bloodclaw, reckless, withering, or holy avenger weapon. There are a couple of exceptions to the list I mentioned (dwarf warlocks want pact hammers, laser bigots want crusader weapons) but that's generally what we're woring with. If you use crossbows, you want a quickshot crossbow. If you use bow and arrows, you want a frost weapon.

Monster bonuses increase almost at a rate of +1 to AC and attack per level. You start out of the gate with some weapon proficiencies and stat bonuses and from then on you're on your own.

So yes, you really do want a +6 shitswinger over 3 +5 swords, unless the shitswinger has some ass property to it like being an acidic weapon and one of the 3 +5 swords is in the category I mentioned earlier.

P.S. From now on, I propose that the cleric and paladin classes be collectively known as 'bigots', because that screwy D&D theology can only have come about from a game where an Abrahamic religionist is trying to hammer a square peg into a polytheist hole.

Tequila Sunrise · Post by **Tequila Sunrise** » Thu Nov 06, 2008 8:28 pm

Psychic Robot wrote:So they get +1 attack/damage per HD you advance them. The damage boost is fine. The attack boost...? Why the fuck would they higher attack bonuses than the PCs? I thought the entire goal of 4e was to make the math "work at all levels." Perhaps I'm just missing something, but doesn't this formula make the math work less? Shouldn't the PCs and monsters advance at the same rate to keep the math on the level?

No, you're not missing anything. Monster stats (except for attacks vs. AC) do scale faster than PC stats. The 'N + Level' golden standard is very simple, but it is also an oversimplification. In fact, I just wrote a 4e Monster Maker for Adamant Entertainment which is basically a rewrite of the DMG monster creation guidelines: http://adamant.rpgnow.com/product_info. ... s_id=58744

As to item dependency, sadly 4e is still reliant on magical items. But at least the PHB explicitly spells out to the DM and players what kind of bonuses the PCs are expected to have from their items, which is a lot more helpful than 3e's WBL guidelines.

TS

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4e Monster Creation: What.

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